KDE-CVS-Digest for February 13, 2004

In this week's KDE-CVS-Digest: The LDAP kio-slave is improved with TSL and SSL for secure connections and SASL for authentication. KDEPIM has a new certificate manager. Work proceeds apace on the khtml XML parser and xpath libraries. Plus a large number of bug fixes in Kopete.

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Comments

by Turd Ferguson (not verified)

It's too bad that they removed Konsole from the default kicker, but I guess it would come eventually. Not everyone is a power user.

by Eric Laffoon (not verified)

It should be noted that when answering user questions it is definitely easier to give them a few quick command lines for searching RPMs, checking whether config files are writable and things of this nature. I can't rely on their menus being laid out the same and it takes a lot longer explaining how to find Konqueror the file browser, make sure you display hidden files and go to this directory and display details or open this program...

Now, this adds to the complexity of developers of having to assume people can even find a console window. Sure distros already muck this up but a lot of newbies actually seem to take the trouble to build Gentoo to learn about Linux. Why is KDE chosing to hide it's heritage?

dcop kicker Panel addServiceButton konsole

> Why is KDE chosing to hide it's heritage?

Well, I think for the first time, KDE applications have gotten mature enough that this can be the case.

For example, for a long time I used konsole for file management rather than konqueror; konq was just too slow and inefficient for me. With the improvements made in the 3.2 cycle, I've been using it more and more.

The same case with kdevelop. I've historically used a terminal with vim for all my programming. kdevelop 3.0 is fantastic, and I can do things quicker in it than having to manually edit my Makefile.am's and await breakage :)..

The same case with your application, Quanta. In the past, it simply wasn't worth it for me to use Quanta rather than just use a terminal and vim. With all of the improvements in Quanta made in the last year, I can call myself a proud Quanta user.

The same thing was true with kmail; abiet earlier. I used to use mutt (and before that, pine) for email. When Evolution came around, I switched to it, and when KDE 3.1 came out, I switched to kmail.

Simply put, many people who've used the terminal because KDE applications suck are using the KDE applications now. When KDE comes with a full set of console applications, I'm sure that the konsole would be welcome back by default in kicker.

"Well, I think for the first time, KDE applications have gotten mature enough that this can be the case."

See for instance:
Bug 35371: Ark does not handle password protected archives

Anyway I don't think this is a valid justification.
The majority of the desktop linux users, right now and in the near future, would probably like to have the Konsole there. Even if that wasn't the case I think the high number of users who use konsole *a lot* justifies having it there.

J.A.

Anyone sophisitated to use konsole a lot should have the skills to add an icon to Kicker for it.

That and much more, so lets remove them all let those users redo their own desktop! It just doesn't make sense. Anyway this isn't even true! I know many people who use terminal a lot but are into FVWM2, Black/Fluxbox, whatever. They have no idea how to work with KDE, they don't even know it has it's own "konsole". My guess is that if they had to use KDE they'd start cursing it because they can't even find a f*ck#ng terminal, eventualy click on kicker, see "run command", and start an xterm.

Making linux user friendly is a good thing, but there is no need to make things harder to the more technical linux user, and you must agree that there are *many* of us. So why remove it, if they click it they can close it. I can agree with something like moving the konsole icon away from the others, maybe putting it on the left of the applets, but not removing it.

If a user is 'technical' enough to use a command-line, they should be technical enough to click K->System->Terminal Program.

Did you read my answer?
First off all that is NOT true. That reasoning has two problems, using konsole-/->tech people and tech people-/-> know how to add it to kicker.
But more important, even if it were true it doesn't justifie it!

J.A.

Oh come on. As was mentioned, it is really easy to find the terminal item in the K menu.

KDE isn't in the business of removing everything and making a Windows/Mac clone "Because this user (the most moronic) doesn't like it, and refuses to learn". If this was the case, we'd have a boiled down DE like Gnome.

Similarly, power users don't get everything in the same places as Fluxbox or others, either. KDE isn't here to duplicate those environments, and if that is what they want, then they can use those environments. I'm sure if they are faced with a modern Linux box running KDE and really want that functionality, they can a) Make a kicker link themselves (it really is trivial!), b) Just find it in the menu, c) Install Fluxbox instead, if they really can't be bother to even try and open the K menu.

KDE is about finding a balance that suits the majority of people. A balance of usability that is close to being *right*. Linus has long said that if there are two ways of doing something which are irreconcilable, there is a better third solution out there waiting to be found. KDE is constantly looking for the third solution.

Honestly, I think the terminal in the Kmenu is just right. These days, I rarely use the terminal on its own, but rather I use the one embedded into Konqi. If I need one for SSH, etc. I just open one and then have multiple tabs. My box has been running my current session for the last hundred days, and I've only clicked the terminal icon once, so it doesn't need to be so quick-start.

Oh, and please mind your language.

Nothing wrong with xterm though. If it works for you.

The beauty of what you just stated: if you can't find one way, they will probably be able to find another one.

Me myself I think Linux should move away from the 'if you can't type you cannot operate the system' adagio. Removing konsole from the standard desktop is good. Removing the program itself would be bad (I don't want a Resource Kit kinda thing, for those enough in the windows world to know what I mean).

Yes and it is true that removing it, makes the system a bit harder for people that depend on a terminal. Then again, we are talking KDE here, where the 'D' stands for Desktop, which means mousepushing. So it is definitely sane to remove a user unfriendly powerapp from the default desktop.

If nothing works, you can always press ctrl+alt+F1 ;-)

Trip

True, but far from perfect.

As far as I'm concerned, I simply hate file managers.
File management is really faster with CLI. The only
good point for graphics file managers is they let
me see a global vision of directories. I hate
tree view controls too (I like using different windows
and switch between them: one source, one dest, no
need to scroll stupid that tree view).

For kdevelop, it begins to be usable. However,
it's far from finished: debugging is completely
broken, many options do strictly nothing when
selected, general config/options are way too
close to MS .Net (what an awful thing), window
management is quite annoying (too many toolbars,
too many tools, not enough screen space, etc.).
But now I can configure it, so it is usable.

Last, hiding console will make me add it immediately
of course. Exactly as if I were with W2k/XP:
put it in the taskbar & desktop immediately after
install. Hope KDE won't take default options as
Windows: I have to invert all defaults chosen by
MS designers (who fell on the head 2-3 years ago).

Have you tried Konqi with the embedded terminal emulator? It's a great combination, especially when you add tabbed file management!

something else i just discovered in konq file manager that shows konq file management is really maturing:

try to drag an image (jpeg or so) in a folder containing an image with the same filename.

i don't know how long that feature already exists, but its nice ..

by Anthony Graham (not verified)

Why don't we just have another screen on that settings wizzard, that lets you choose from:
Power User:
display konsole on kicker, hide help, get rid of "friendly names" like "Multimedia Player (xmms)" and put back normal names like "xmms"

Normal user:
hide konsole, show help, use friendly names

custom....
well you know, with the checkboxes etc!

Please everyone!

- Anthony G

by Jim Dabell (not verified)

> this adds to the complexity of developers of having to assume people can even find a console window.

I disagree. How hard is it to say "Hit Alt-F2, type 'konsole' with a k and hit Enter"? It seems to me it would be easier than trying to describe the right icon to click.

> Sure distros already muck this up but a lot of newbies actually seem to take the trouble to build Gentoo to learn about Linux.

Some beginners are interested in learning the details, yes. But that doesn't mean the default for everybody should waste valuable eye-space on something that is of little use to the average user. Being one click away from the Help Centre is useful for the average user. Being one click away from Konqueror is useful for the average user. Being one click away from something that is used to type complicated commands into the computer is *not* useful for the average user.

I think that the users that would benefit from being one click away from Konsole are (or will be) in a minority and more than capable of adding it to their taskbar themselves.

> Why is KDE chosing to hide it's heritage?

That's a bit hyperbolic isn't it? This isn't a case of deliberately hiding a useful tool, it's a case of deciding that a tool rarely used by the average user is given too much prominence to the detriment of the overall experience. The other buttons are obviously useful. From a newbie's perspective:

Click on the Home button: a window with all your files in pops up.

Click on the Konqueror button: a web browser pops up with a nice introduction.

Click on the Help button: A window pops up with online help in.

Click on the Konsole button: A window pops up expecting you to type cryptic commands in - *blank stare from newbie*.

by Mark Hannessen (not verified)

I use the Konsole all the time because I do a lot of scripting and such, but this move is hardly problamatic because there is nothing stopping me from adding it back. so it is more a neutral move from my point of view. (I removed the help button because I considered THAT eye waste)

by Jadrian (not verified)

> Click on the Konsole button: A window pops up expecting you to type cryptic
> commands in - *blank stare from newbie*.

Clicks 'close' and everythings back to normal. And?
From the Digest: "The key to the logic behind reasoning is that konsole users(such as myself) are a minority, and that gap will become bigger as KDE's userbase grows."

A minority? That may eventualy happen but, right now? Come on!
And even if we were a minority! We are still *many*! A *lot*! And we need konsole a *lot*. It's a bad move, remove it when it is really not causing much trouble.

I also hate that mentality. "Everyone is dumb, lets hide the konsole".
*If* it could really cause problems to people I'd say remove it, but removing something that can be so useful just because some don't know what it is? Hey every kid I knew learned DOS to play games! I'm not saying you should force people to use it... but hide it even though so many people want it to avoid "*blank stare from newbie*". Me newbie, you strange, me scared... eh!

by Jim Dabell (not verified)

> Clicks 'close' and everythings back to normal. And?

My point isn't that it irrevocably screws up the user's session when they click it. My point is that the "one click away from using it" status is incredibly priviledged. Only the most immediately important and useful applications should have that status. Once you start throwing in random stuff that you happen to like, it dilutes the importance of the entire status.

This is basic usability: make the important stuff easy to reach, but the less frequently-used, less important stuff further away so it doesn't distract.

> A minority? That may eventualy happen but, right now? Come on!

No, not right now. When KDE 3.3 is released.

> And even if we were a minority! We are still *many*! A *lot*! And we need konsole a *lot*.

I'm one of them. I always have a couple of konsole windows open. I don't consider it to be a burden at all to put konsole on the kicker when I first log into a new machine.

> I also hate that mentality. "Everyone is dumb, lets hide the konsole".

Usability isn't about dumb people.

by Jadrian (not verified)

>>> Click on the Konsole button: A window pops up expecting you to type
>>> cryptic commands in - *blank stare from newbie*.

>> Clicks 'close' and everythings back to normal. And?

> My point isn't that it irrevocably screws up the user's session when they
> click it. My point is that the "one click away from using it" status is
> incredibly priviledged.

Ok. Time out!
Read again. What I was commenting here had *nothing* to do with the "one click way thing" does it?

My argumentation is quite clear, I even use most of the principles you stated in this post to justify keeping konsole in kicker. What is the use of telling me those principles again without saying where you don't agree with me... eh.

J.A.

by Ralph Jenkin (not verified)

> > this adds to the complexity of developers of having to assume people can even find a console window.

> I disagree. How hard is it to say "Hit Alt-F2, type 'konsole' with a k and hit Enter"? It seems to me it would be easier than trying to describe the right icon to click.

Agreed, but with the caveat that if the user chose a windows-like desktop in that first time wizard thing, ALT-F2 doesn't do a damn thing. Bugs me every time I try and fix something in my wife's account.

So the least prone to error way to get a user to bring up a konsole is much the same as it is when doing windows support, K Menu -> Run Command -> konsole (very much the old start->run->command|cmd thing).

> I think that the users that would benefit from being one click away from Konsole are (or will be) in a minority and more than capable of adding it to their taskbar themselves.

Well, I don't know about being in a minority, but they must certainly be capable (it truly is very easy).

That said, I live inside of konsole (maximized with usually 5 and on bad days 13 or more tabs open), but I don't have a konsole button on my kicker. KDE session management means my konsole is always there from last time, a new shell is a three fingered hotkey away, and a new konsole is just a ALT-F2 kon away, both of which are heaps quicker to do than grabbing my mouse to initiate something which is clearly a keyboard-centric task.

> Click on the Konsole button: A window pops up expecting you to type cryptic commands in - *blank stare from newbie*.

This is the most important reason for removing the konsole link from the defaults. What is your average user going to do with it? Learn to ignore it, or figure out how to remove it.

About the only people seriously disadvantaged would be users who expect to be able to find a shell, but aren't used to KDE's interface paradigm (like the minimal X window manager users), and they surely will be able to at least click on the K menu, click on run, and type xterm (or rxvt, or eterm, or whatever) until someone notices what they're doing and clues them up (or they learn the awesome power of a right click on the kicker).

Konsole shouldn't be a link by default for the same reason the cervisia view mode shouldn't be in the konq toolbar by default.

by cobaco (not verified)

so have them do alt+F2 konsole

by Anonymous (not verified)

GNOME 2.x is for sure not targetted at power users and even they have the terminal in the standard panel setup.

by ac (not verified)

KDE 3.x isn't targeted for power users either.. KDE is a DE that anybody (or rather, the largest subset of users) can use and learn.

by Phexro (not verified)

Actually, I think that the Konsole button is useless for advanced users as well. In my opinion, anyone who uses a commandline (or commandline apps, or someone who deals with remote sessions via telnet/ssh) frequently is going to remove the Konsole button and add a Terminal Sessions special button. Removing the Konsole button in the default install just saves a step in that process.

by ac (not verified)

prefmenu is one of the best things in KDE! Why the hell would you remove that? This is really putting a bad foot forward.

Removing Konsole is really bad step for Unix people. You know what? The distributions targetted to clueless users WONT HAVE a default KDE anyway. Do you understand that? Those people will be using Lindows or Lycoris. The UNIX people will be using default KDE.

The people USING DEFAULT KDE will WANT Konsole. This is really bad for KDE usability.

Really disappointed. KDE should put its best foot forward not hide more features. Already too many features are hidden, now you want to hide more? Ridiculous.

Please Revert!!!!!!!

by fault (not verified)

> Please Revert!!!!!!!

Please don't. Less and less people should be using konsole in a GRAPHICAL desktop environment like KDE.

People who need konsole should know how to put it in anyways.

by Marc J. Driftmeyer (not verified)

I call B.S. This is the same reasoning that OS X took with Terminal.app. Unless one has the developer tools installed one doesn't get Terminal.app, amongst other quite necessary UNIX tools.

What happens? Support gets inundated with redundant complaints about Applications crashing unexpectedly and people being frustrated.

Time is wasted having people install Terminal.app and then launching Apps from command line only to determine a dynamic library needs a ln -s or due to an Software Update the system inadvertently overwrote custom configurations.

Difference here is time is wasted for people hunting down where Konsole is and going from there. If you want to remove an Icon from Kicker, update your FAQ and educate the new user where to find each Icon and why they would need to use such an application.

I would leave the defaults up to the Distribution Vendor and not the Source.

Until Debian reaches a stable version of its upcoming GUI based Package Management Tool one often has to deal with installing a bunch of extra packages just to get the config tools to run outside of the Shell.

If you want to be anal make two sources: End User and Developer. Sample the results of how many people actually download End User and draw some statistical conclusions as you should, objectively speaking.

Having worked at NeXT and Apple you bet your butt both environments benefit from the Shell being easily accessible.

What I never select is KMail, Home Icon or the Help Icon. Why? The Help system needs refinement--it's desire to launch the entire Help system versuses app specific and then giving one the option to view the entire Help system would be preferable. Once KMail gets IMAP worked out and TLS stable then I can switch from Thunderbird, or use them both, but not until then.

Most of the help documentation is extremely shallow in depth and breadth. Most of the useful discoveries of KDE often come from working with Konsole.

How often do your users download Source and build, say a custom Debian Set of Debs because the i386 just doesn't cut it?

The Customization features are great and having them directly accessible, by category is much nicer than launching the entire Control Center.

While the hell you don't call is System Preferences to spread familiarity is anyone's guess.

Info Center, btw, is beautiful. Extremely useful, especially when needing to work with Kernel Configuration/Compilation settings, device settings, etc. I would rename Info Center to System Hardware Center, or something and have it grouped right with Control Center.

Currently, 3.2 isn't showing any information about ALSA but Sound is working fine for me.

Control Center doesn't have a minimum screen size so that the display of the name, "Control Center" is completely visible--more polish makes it seem more professional. This isn't just a KDE thing it's a GNOME/GTK thing as well. The GIMP is notorious for having to resize its views just to read everything. Very annoying and unprofessional.

Something you never saw with NeXTStep/Openstep and definitely not OS X.

I would work on cleaning up the seemless look n' feel before yanking icons of familiarity from Kicker.

by fault (not verified)

> I call B.S. This is the same reasoning that OS X took with Terminal.app. Unless one has the developer tools installed one doesn't get Terminal.app, amongst other quite necessary UNIX tools.

Erm, relax. It isn't like konsole was removed from kdebase.

by Tukla Ratte (not verified)

> I would work on cleaning up the seemless look n' feel

Go for it.

by Carlos Woelz (not verified)

While I don't agree with the wording of the parent message, I agree that simple stuff, like the default kicker setting (that distros change anyway), could reflect the average user of the KDE CVS sources. This type of user definitely uses the Konsole a lot.

In the medium term it is as important to attract developers as it is important to win users. The code, dialogs and applications must have the user in mind, but the KDE CVS (I mean KDE from the source) default settings could reflect that most of its users are power users.

I can certainly understand your reasoning, but I don't think that kind of thing is what is going "woo" developers.

I think instead, maturation of graphical tools such as kdevelop will have a much larger benefit for KDE in the future in terms of independent applications.

by Manuel (not verified)

Don't worry...

ALT + F2, write Konsole and press Enter.

Unshow the console for be friendly with the "low users".

Patient, we continue to have Konsole.

Well well...

If we really need objective knowledge whether Konsole shortcut should or should not be on kicker, we need a usability studu.

In case this is necessary, I'll volunteer.

I'll ask 100 users at our network:

Do you use command prompt (console application):
a) daily
b) weekly
c) less often
d) never

How's that? Guess what the results would be?

Eleknader

by arcade (not verified)

"Removing Konsole is really bad step for Unix people. You know what? The distributions targetted to clueless users WONT HAVE a default KDE anyway. Do you understand that? Those people will be using Lindows or Lycoris. The UNIX people will be using default KDE."

Removing Konsole is quite simply moronic. It'll only get more difficult to support people over IRC, over the phone, and so forth. Currently I usually just ask them to click on the konsole-button, do a couple of quick commands, and give me the output.

When konsole is removed I need to know where the fuck it's located in the menus (for different distros .. *sigh*). I'll end up asking them to hit alt+f2 and type 'xterm' and press enter.

KDE usability _suffers_ from this. Calling it an improvement is really moronic.

by Anonymous (not verified)

> I'll end up asking them to hit alt+f2 and type 'xterm' and press enter.

What's suddenly wrong with Konsole? It doesn't get worse or disappears just because it's not anymore in the default panel configuration. It can't be also a spelling problem ("eggsterm" anyone)?

by UnixPowerUser (not verified)

You could also hit [alt]+[f2] and type 'konsole' instead. I just found out.
Works perfect. Really cool.

And, somehow, I managed to delete my current konsole from kicker and get it
back. Took me 1/2 hour to succeed, though. Have forgotten how I did it. But I
will practice a bit next weekend and then will be prepared for KDE's 3.3 menu
cleanups. Go on guys, I don't fear a "from-the-default-kicker-removed konsole
any longer...

Hehe.....

by claes (not verified)

How does the xml and xpath support in khtml compare to the one in libxml? In this case I would think embracing libxml could be a pretty good thing. It is a candidate also in the LSB futures: http://www.linuxbase.org/futures/candidates/index.html

by Datschge (not verified)

Is libxml in C++? If so I agree it should be embranced. If not I think KDE's C++ developers may spend less time creating an own implementation using the infrastructure KDE already offers.

by Jilks (not verified)

There are wrappers. Libxml is used by KDE now (in its C form), btw.

by Datschge (not verified)

In many cases wrappers are not sufficient tho. The digest this week included a read worty link regarding this topic, in case you missed it http://tinyurl.com/3bk82

>This was agreed on, on kde-core-devel/kde-usability but committing the

Sorry, but where is this discussion on kde-core-devel? Discussing it on kde-usability and kde-cvs is not enough. kde-usability is a noisy mess and kde-cvs is just too high volume. Why wasn't there a proper discussion on kde-core-devel?

And kde-core-devel isn't a noisy mess either? There is a ton of OT stuff there, take the recent stuff about GPL licensing (should be in kde-licensing), WhatIsText (probably in kde-usability), apollon (should be in kde-policies and kde-extragear), kmail, etc...

kde-core-devel has turned into what kde-devel used to be, and what kde used to before that.. what's next? a kde-core-core-devel?

This particular issue is probably best for kde-usability, rather than kde-core-devel.

No usability should not be discussed in core-devel , kde-usability was created just for THAT purpose to discuss it there. So if you want to decide about usability issues , then join that mailing list.

i find it more than ok to make a usability in kde-usability !

Someone in kde-core-devel should be anray if he is not subscribed to usability if they change something , waht do you think.

chris

> i find it more than ok to make a usability in kde-usability !

ACK. However, in this case, the maintainer of kicker (John Firebaugh), should have been CC'd.

When kde-usability first started its somewhat bungled approach to working with developers it caused a lot of bad feeling. There was a promise made to let developers know about discussions while they were occuring (as there are often good reasons why thing work a particular way). Sadly this promise seems not be honoured.

by UnixPowerUser (not verified)

I agree that we Unix power users need the konsole badly. We are commandline
wizards, ya know??? We can't be without!

So, please, please, please: can someone who is a GUI wizard write down the
exact order of mouseclicks/keystroks that brings my konsole icon back to
kicker?

I'm desperate for it.... KDE should not only always satisfy the newbie wishlists,
it should also listen to us, who are at the center of the Unix world.

Right Click On Panel->Add->Application Button->Unknown Mess Of Menus Depending On Where You Got KDE From

by Dan (not verified)

Even faster: bind konsole to a key combination using khotkeys.

I think you can just enable the "Run Konsole" entry under the "Examples" group of actions (which also needs to be enabled...).

OR:

do the same thing under the "Menu Editor entries" group...

I think the default key combo is Ctrl+Alt+t and Win+s respectively, but can be easily changed!

If you use konsole a lot, this is even faster than clicking the panel...

Perhaps these `hotkeys' could be enabled by default?

Well even if KDE removes Konsole you can still use xterm. This voodoo to get to it: Alt-F2 xterm ENTER.

Hello? Nobody is talking about removing Konsole at all: Alt-F2 konsole ENTER