Every now and then, someone points out something embarrassing in KDE that just needs to be fixed, and fixed quickly. So, less than 24 hours after Nat Friedman's interview on OSNews, the main valid issue he pointed out -- that KDE's clock configuration dialog was messy and bloated -- was already being fixed. There's even a bug in our database filed for it, and if it made enough of an impression on a fairly well-known GNOME hacker that he had to comment on it publically, I figured it deserved fixing. So moments after the comment, we began hammering out the UI for a newly revamped Clock Configuration page. Expect to enjoy the fix in CVS soon!
Dot Categories:
Comments
Better kde-usability mailing list. On kdelook.org everything with "Improvement" in title gets 80+% "good" automatically.
I'd prefer both kdelook.org and bugs.kde.org, mailing lists (especially kde-usability) easily get off topic and thus are quite inefficient. looky on the other hand allows one to check the public response to new UI's and buggy has a very reliable voting system.
> Anyway, do kde applications share a common dialog framework or is it unique for all
> apps?
KDialogBase
I haven't really looked at Qt Designer yet.
Does it work with KDialogBase? I'm really interested because then I might use it for Cervisia.
Christian
the easiest thing to do IME is to create your UI as a Widget, then create a KDialogBase subclass which instatiates and controls the Designer created UI as a child widget. it creates a greater separation between the UI and the code that drives it, which helps speed up development. it also makes tweaking the UI painless =)
Eyecandy != usability. The keyboard input & shortcut system is still imperfect. An single example: Why do I have to rename a session in Konsole using STRG+Alt+S while renaming in Konqueror is simply pressing F2? The worst idea of navigation you'll find in KMail imho. I'm using v1.52 (KDE 3.1.2), so I hope this will change.
Many of the shortcuts in konsole are different from what you'll find from other KDE apps because some of the same shortcuts may be (or may not be) used by terminal apps, and therefore, must be passed on to the terminal widget.
O.k., but F2?
On the other hand one could ask, why it's not STRG+R in Konqueror. I mean, all the data handling is STRG+C, STRG+V, but then F2. That's another point in KDE in general; I would expect, that the shortcuts for data-handling and interaction with more application-specific functions would be separated in a way that makes sense. STRG+_SOMEKEY_ only for data for example. It's obvios that there are applications , where this is not possible, but I can't see a _strong_ policy in KDE.
I'm aware, that this point of view breaks the idea of using F2 in Konsole. Take it as a test balloon. ;-)
I hope you told us via bugs.kde.org what you don't like about the navigation in KMail (which might be non-standard, but which is very fast) by either submitting appropriate wishes or by voting for already existing wishes.
No, I didn't. I'll have a look. But I really don't _want to_ understand your point. One main advantage of using a DE is standardization to give the user an intuitive interface at hand, and not "huh that's fast, like vim, if you know how to...". ;-)
For me KMail's navigation is a breeze, and I hope it will become the standart for that kind of UI's everywhere (eg. KNode would greatly profit of it).
This is a petty gripe of Nat's. Yes, the clock dialog should have been improved, and I'm glad that it has been, but if this is the foremost complaint about KDE on his mind, then I think we're doing pretty damn well.
He didn't say that it in itself was the worst problem with KDE, he used at as an exmaple of the feature creep and clutter found in much of the KDE UI.
I want it! In speaking of UI issues, I really would like to see more simple, out-of-the-way themes become available. Light Style 3rd rev. is nice, and KDE Classic is very well designed, and dotNet has good mouse-over & shading, but I still haven't found the perfect one. Perhaps this is it?
Eron
that's dotNET from cvs-head.. very nice theme.. kermaikII from cvs-head is improved a lot too.
No, really, it is dotNET!
(I already sent you an email explaining this, but I'll reply here too for everyone else.)
It really is. Grab http://c133.org/files/dotNET-1.4.1.tar.bz2 and install it if you want the absolute latest code (1.4 is the latest public release; 1.4.1 isn't final yet, but it fixes an annoying bug with the bolded text on 'default' QPushButtons).
Also read http://c133.org/ and check back every week or so for new updates/information. :)
-clee
Ahh! So, after downloading & compiling...I see no difference. I must be doing something wrong. A good idea perhaps in the Style applet is to show what version of each theme is installed? I will try 1.4.1 now.
Thanks!
Eron
Make sure that your KDEDIR was set when you compiled. (If it wasn't, you'll have a /usr/local/lib/kde3/plugins/styles/ directory - delete it.)
Try 'kde-config --prefix' to figure out where KDE is installed, then 'export KDEDIR=`kde-config --prefix`' and try 'configure && make && make install' again.
Or else wait for 3.2, when it'll all be in kdeartwork. :)
-clee
So-so: http://c133.org/files/newclockprefs.png
BAD: http://www.csh.rit.edu/~benjamin/clock.png
Ben's version is extremely crammed with things, while the first one is better
because it does have a logical flow, it is just that ordering is bad, while
the frames are not nessesary in this specific design, it makes everything
look boxy and more complicated that it really is. Just let the natural flow
out....
Please consider my mockup and adopt the Modified one if you agree with it. Clee's effort is not bad, just needed a bit of clean up. :)
Modified effort:
http://img.osnews.com/img/3721/clock.png
Yours does look better, and I like the way the "Foreground" and "Background" color options are aligned in yours more too.
The font selections is also better, why do you need "font:" when there is a choose font on the button? =p
In addition, it also seems less cluttered and I like it better over all.
You have a great eye for detail and that's really improtant when it comes to usability, thanks a lot =), I'm sure the KDE developers will adapt the design to your mockup. If you know any other poorly designed KDE dialogs or whatever, please do post about them. it might be easier for you to actually jsut use qt Designer without connecting the slots, I just used it for fun and its easier than using an image program when you want to show this kind of stuff, especially considering that many KDE programs have a ui file available for download.
Again thanks, and I hope you notice more things, I honestly didn't even notice those problems until you pointed them out. I really want KDE to excel in usability so we need your help too =)
BTW: There is a problem with the timezones when you select a whole lot: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58948
Since we were on the subject of the clock configuration dialog anyway...
Please reload the mockup, I did some changes:
http://img.osnews.com/img/3721/clock.png
Actually I liked the frames. IMHO your mockup now has too many elements scattered over one page. If I remember right, the human mind can only grasp 5+2 elements at once. That's why a sheet of music uses 5 lines. You now have 10 active elements.
But your positioning of the foreground and background buttons is much better. Although I think it would be even better when they could be somehow moved to the left border.
Just some suggestions. :-)
Christian
It too like clee's interface a bit better. I like Eugenia's even better though. The group boxes are quite unnecessary here- all the controls in the "Options" group box have an effect on appearance, and all of the controls in the "Appearance" group box are options.
They were all display options, so changing the tab from "General" to "Display" is also good. Since timezones have nothing to do with display options, keeping it in a different tab promotes organization and usability.
The Foreground and background colors selection boxes are in the right place in Eugenia's mockup too. They are suboptions of "Use Custom Colors", and the state of the parent has an effect on the children, so therefore, they are indented. Taking a quick look at the old kde user interface guide, it has nothing on this. I know that both GNOME's HIG and Apple's pre-Aqua HIG do, however. If someone were ever to update the KUIG (or rewrite it from scratch), it should include things like this.
I think I liked your older one a bit more. I really hate the wide space after "font preview: " so maybe you should leave the older mockup up also.
There are some more places where completely superfluous group boxes are used. Take, for instance, kcontrol/Appearance/Window Decorations. In the "General" tab as well as in most "Configure" tabs group boxes aren't used to group anything, but as an additional tab description around the whole tab. They are redunant and don't give any relevant information. What does a "Decoration Settings" group box want to tell me? I entered the "Window Decorations/Configure" tab for a reason, didn't I?
So it only takes a public interview to fix a suck clock config dialog, makes you wonder about the rest "of things".
Now are "people" proud that less then 24 hours after Nat Friedman's interview on OSNews where he pointed out his clock configuration dialog problem, it was fixed?
Or are "people" proud that such suck design obviously gets in KDE in the first place and that on top of that it takes a freaking public interview to take care of it?
Its nice that it gets fixed so "fast", but lets not pretend that this story is the way it should really work. Just imagine how long it might have taken for this clock config dialog to be fixed if this interview never took place. This makes it seem like people care only if its addressed, where it should be the initial clock config dialog designer getting a clue.
If somewhere sometime a developer can just cram suck design in somewhere without some usability team overseeing things, what is the freaking effectiveness of this usability team???
I would point out that 1) The interview brought it to my attention because the interview was relatively well publicized, 2) The dialog was obviously not originally designed by a UI guru, 3) Our usability team was formed well after the creation of many of the dialogs and programs that exist in KDE (including this one) and 4) The fact that it was being fixed so quickly is in fact something to be proud of.
Also, keep in mind, the bug report in our bugzilla is only two weeks old. I didn't notice it there because it's not my module, and I don't spend all of my free time obsessively searching the bug DB looking for bugs to fix (although I probably should). Even if I had, I probably wouldn't have looked very hard, since the bugreport itself is labelled rather poorly.
I agree, this should never have happened in the first place, but that's why we're still developing everything. It's not "done", it's not set in stone, it's not dead. It's alive, and it's constantly sucking less, which is what I usually aim for.
-clee
5) It needs some experience to create good UI and some KDE developers have just started to program (IMO it's a myth that good developers can't great good UIs).
6) Nobody really complained before. So it seems as if it wasn't so important for our users.
Christian
wow. someone needs to relax.
in any case, i was already working on the clock dialog before this interview. see: http://urbanlizard.com/~aseigo/clockshot.png
second, the usability "team" isn't some crack group of coordinated individuals whose life mission is to drop onto KDE like a tiger team and sort out all the problems between now and next wednesday. it's really just a way for people who are improving KDE's usability to confer, discuss and help each other out. and most of those people are doing so as they have spare hours in the day.
as you probably have noticed, KDE has a LOT of interface components. as you may or may not have noticed, it takes a lot of time to get those components right and fully implemented. multiply those two figures and you see how much work there is.
that said, things are improving. and i'm happy about that. i'd like things to move faster too, but until we get a full-time UI guru or two involved in the KDE project or a bunch of new part-timers who actualy code rather than gripe, things will continue to move at the current pace.
AC here ;) (relaxing)
If KDE remains too dependand on volunteer work, I think its logical not to see usability team members with "a life mission". Same goes for developers.
Perhaps I am simply wrong, but it seems almost a taboo to mention that "if somehow people could get paid for helping KDE", KDE development would become much more streamlimed, while still open source.
If at one time millions and millions of users jump on KDE, pure volunteering seems like stupidity to me.
I think you underestimated the "free-time" developers.
Reasons:
1. We work on KDE because it's fun --> higher motivation than paid workers.
2. We do it in our free-time --> it's our baby so we are willing take more
responsibility for our code.
3. There are a lot more developers working on KDE than most software companies
could afford --> many fresh ideas and point of views coming to KDE.
etc...
A paid developer neither ensures good code quality, design nor usable UI. It just increases the amount of time he can work on the code.
Just an opinion of a full-time software developer. :-)
Christian
Where is your superior developer or whatever paid by you?
Also your comments could be more streamlined as well: better spend your time commenting on and voting for reports which bother you at bugs.kde.org.
Wow, I really like your clock dialog, the best of all the mockups I have seen so far!
Great.....I like Aaron's much better.
Ok after getting some review I have moved the dialog to something much simpler. http://www.csh.rit.edu/~benjamin/clock1.png here is a screenshot of the new configure dialog.
Nice - that's better than the others people have knocked up.
ok, to simplify even more, why not remove the font selector?
Without being able to select the fonts size IMO the font selector itself should go.
or
replace it with a "standart" fontselector where u can choose size etc aswell
Help, Defaults, Ok and Apply buttons, just for one self explaining dialog??
By the way, there's one thing I like with gnome, it's that there's no need for "Apply" / "Ok".
All changes take effect immediately and just "Close" exists.
Doing the same with KDE would be great.
When talking about KDE, the clock dialog was also a common example for me. I think the code quality of KDE is higher than of gnome's so is its features.
But Gnome wins for usability and look - I never found Keramik "clean" for instance. I would love that KDE adjusts its level here, since it's simpler for KDE to do that for Gnome to make betters APIs and more features ;)
> All changes take effect immediately and just "Close" exists.
This may not be the best thing in terms of usability.
> I never found Keramik "clean" for instance
Try KeramikII in cvs. It's much less "bulky" feel.
Font selector should NOT be a drop down box. It is way too limited to be of use. How do I change the size of the font. I am sure KDE will have a standard font dialog in there, so just use a button to bring that dialog up and choose font properly. Also, it makes you have to do less on the dialog itself. No need to implement a separate font size, bold, italicise etc. Check out Eugenia's dialog.
agreed
This a great but I think there needs to be a preview of what the analogue, digital and other clocks will look like. Once we have that then I think it looks great!
Wow, I'm impressed!
Nice, not way too large, not lots of useless buttons, not too many options, not too less, it should be an example for all other dialogs in KDE + associated programs. :)
And please don't add any more buttons (like the other example), it's good like this (altough the mockup from Eugenia might be better, but this is also pretty good already :)
btw. The only complaint I've got is the color buttons, they look a bit old (as in 'old from the win 3.11 period') with that bevel.
Hi!
I've created another draft.
You can find screenshots and the UI-files on
http://segfaultskde.berlios.de/other/clock-design
Tell me what you think about them.
I've posted this to the kde-devel and kde-usability-lists, too.
Check out the bug report http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58775 its been updated and now lists the top 5 proposals for the new clock design, please tell which your favorite is.
The real usability mess is in the ControlCenter
Agreed!
Just tested knoppix with KDE 3.1 and was mighty impressed with everything but the Control Center. I know the Control Center has been worked on but they seem to just moved things around a bit without rethinking the whole concept. I don't know how to fix it but I can say I had a hard time locating things. Can the layout be edited by just edit ui xml files, If so it would be a good thing to have a competition where coders and non coders could give there input, maybe someone will strike gold.
Why do you start up the control center when you can find context sensitive control modules in the rmb menu?
Complaining about control center having too many modules is like going into a library and then complaining that you need to find the books you want first, the control center's purpose *is* containing all settings KDE gives. If that isn't what you want don't use it and make use of my hint above.
Well, the comparison of the control center to a library is good. I personally like that everything can be configured in a centralized manner in the control center. However, a library without an index is useless. If books were messed up, you would never find the book you are looking for.
Currently,the entry "Appearance & Themes" category is a bit messy, people are working on it though. Other things are maybe the naming of some configuration entries, e.g. "Fonts" appear both in the "Appearance & Themes" and "Web browser" category, maybe it would be better to call the "Web Browser" entry "Web page fonts" instead of just "Fonts". Another example is "Preferences" in the "Internet & Network" category. What "Preferences" represent is not immediately clear as in the control center all entries are preferences.