"Linux Journal's Editor's Choice Awards are well-known as the premiere forum recognizing outstanding product developments and achievements in the Linux market. A panel of more than 50 distinguished Linux experts was assembled to nominate products for the awards, which were then sent to the Linux Journal editors who chose the final winners." KDE 3.0 wins the honour of best Consumer Software. Konqueror obtained an honorable mention as Web Client but was beaten up by Mozilla and Galeon. KDevelop also received an honorable mention as Development Tool alongst with Borland Kylix, both being beaten by Emacs -- but had they tried KVim?
The Sharp Zaurus was also selected as best Mobile Device and Product of the Year -- good news for QtE.
It seems that once again this site has become an outlet for people to abuse one another. I'm quite convinced that there is a small group of trolls who have no interest in either KDE or GNOME (or Linux in general), but who need their ego massaged by deliberately inciting and offending other people. Don't you guys have something better to do with your time?
Slightly more on-topic, I don't see the need for relying on exclusively KDE or GNOME applications. Sure, their visual appearance is different (so maybe Red Hat had the right idea about unifying themes?), but personally I like to use the best tool for the job. I use KDE as my day-to-day desktop, but I when it comes to the actual apps I use Mozilla, KMail, KDevelop, GVim, KPPP & Open Office... because I just find they suit my needs. Why should I HAVE to choose one set of applications? And just because Konq/Galeon/Opera/Emacs/whatever fulfills your needs, why assume that said application will be perfect for everyone else?
Hopefully the trolls will tire of posting abuse here and leave... I've actually really enjoyed visiting this site in the past, and it would be a pity if a small group of morons gave this site a bad name.
> Im quite convinced that there is a small group of trolls who have no interest
> in either KDE or GNOME (or Linux in general), but who need their ego massaged
> by deliberately inciting and offending other people.
It's a miracle! Somebody who gets it!
I think the name-calling editors will do a better job of giving the site a bad name than anonymous posters.
Which ones would those be Neil?
Neil, I'm sorry for calling you a [email protected]#$ time and time again. I didn't know you'd take it *so* personally... ;-)
You are right - I just get a little irritated when idiots like the one grapefruit senlessly bash a decent program. I tend to forget sometimes that people like him want exactly that - to cause irritation and insite arguments. Next time I'll just ignore idiots who look to cause conflict. And I agree, there isn't any reason to soely use one desktop environment over the other - I mean some people take sides viciously like they actually work on the damn project or something. But as far as my personal opinion (stated in a calm mannor): after a clean installation of Linux RedHat (just for example), KDE has software advantages over Gnome, and RedHat has been known for being biased towards Gnome. Personally, I'm not biased towards either, nor do I have any attachments - I just want to use the best software for Linux, and KDE has been that for me thus far...
"Blablabla GNOME apps are better than KDE ones
blablabla KDE is a better Desktop than GNOME blablabla ..."
If I was not a linux user for 4 years, I believed our are takling about Batman vs. Spiderman or Pokemon vs. Digimon :)
Can you (Yes you behind your screen) stop trolling unusefully ?
KDE and GNOME are differents and have different goals :
- GNOME integrate different applications to integrate in a desktop but their design/ergonomy/communication protocol are different so know GNOME team as to work with the developpers to integrate bonobo, gconf, ergonomy norms. GNOME/Gtk apps are good but inhomegenous (If somebody can translate this in good english 'cause i am french ?) between them.
- KDE has work a lot on unification of applications : ergonomy, protocol,.... that's why DCOP, kparts,... are the squeleton of most of the KDE apps. For a long, GTK apps beat KDE one (gimp, xmms, abiword,...) but know it is not true (except for gimp).
noatun is very interesting as an alternative for xmms. It is completely (heaven gui) pluggeable and integrated in the KDE desktop. xmms has more plugins but is not integrated in GNOME.
koffice is an integrated office envirronement. Abiword + gnumeric + ... are much in advance but are not integrated :(
kmail vs. evolution depends of the user. They are very differents and can't really be compared (To my mine)
So : KDE and GNOME are differents but none of them is better than the other and unfortunetally nobody can say if I have a more long than yours :)
Trolling is an difficult art but none of these page's trolls are aristics ;)
Stop trolling !
Just out of curiosity, why is XMMS less integrated than noatun? I mean differences for the user. The same question would apply to Gimp, why isn't it integrated into GNOME? Yes it doesn't use the GNOME libraries but those aren't always needed. It uses the same widget style, dialogs like the open/save file dialog are the same, drag and drop works... For XMMS there is even an applet to control it from the panel. What else would be needed?
XMMS is less integrated than Noatun because its open file dialog is GTK one.
More over, XMMS isn't scriptable via DCOP. Last thing (but I'm not sure): does KDE remember XMMS opened windows when saving a session ?
does KDE remember XMMS opened windows when saving a session ?
Yes it does. KDE remember all applications launched leaving the session. I use this with gkrellm (gtk lib), wmcoincoin (windowmaker lib), konsole (Kde lib),...
It is not an integration problem
Xmms doesn't use Gnome file dialog (Which is much powerfull than gtk one)
It is not possible to integrate a part of it in other application (no bonobo) as noatun in konqueror. Of course it is not noatun who is integrated but a smaller player using its libs.
Xmms can't be manipulated by other apps and system("xmms-shell ...") is not a good way to do it ;)
Xmms manage its windows itself and not the way Gnome apps do (stay-on-top, position, display,...). Have you seeen than when you select "Show only borders when moving windows" in your favorite WM, it is not respect by xmms.
Xmms support drag&drop but all Gnome application don't. Xmms don't use d&d lib of Gnome :(
Gimp doesn't respect Gnome design/ergonomy norms (If this one exist ;)
Gimp use multiple windows and tools are in an other window.
Abiword use one window eaven for multiple document as gnumeric does.
Integration is useful and Gnome need to work on it.
I am waiting for abiword to integrate .xcf file in the document by using bonobo.
Koffice do something like this but apps need work to support more used mimes-types :(
> Xmms doesn't use Gnome file dialog (Which is much powerfull than gtk one)
What GNOME file dialog? There is one? Does any GNOME app use that dialog?
Yes there's a Bonobo-based file selector for GNOME 1 (if you meant that one) but it was never finished. I fail to understand what you mean by "more powerful". The standard GTK+ file dialog supports tab completition, THE future I use most. I don't know if this scares you, but *I can select files faster with the GTK+ file dialog than the Windows or KDE file dialog*! Ximian's GTK+ packages (with patches) fixes some of the most annoying bugs (like that the filename disappears when selecting a directory) and adds nice "Home", "Documents" and "Desktop" shortcut buttons. What more do you need?
And a new file dialog is planned for GNOME 2.2.
> I fail to understand what you mean by "more powerful".
I think he was pointing to the fact that the gtk+ file dialog is probably the most hated thing by end users of gtk apps.
Even the http://developer.gnome.org/gnome-ui/hitsquad/filedialog.html says that it is ;)
> The standard GTK+ file dialog supports tab completition, THE future I use most.
Wow, I didn't realize that it did. I'll have to check it out once I go home.
> And a new file dialog is planned for GNOME 2.2.
Yeah, the new file dialog will probably be great.
I think he was pointing to the fact that the gtk+ file dialog is probably the most hated thing by end users of gtk apps.
No it's not that. I love shell-style completion in gtk file dialog and I want this in KDE too because KDE one is less easy.
kde's file manager has several completion modes (drop down, auto, semi-auto, none) and has for a long, long time. what do you find lacking that isn't covered by one of these modes?
The problem is that TAB completion with most modes doesn't work in the file dialog because TAB jumps to the next element instead of completing the element. TAB only works with dropdown list mode, but then you still have no possibility to enter the next directory easily with the keyboard (or I didn't figure out how to do it). Tested with KDE 3.1 Beta. Also it seems to work completely different again in the input field at the top (moving to the next directory works by typing a slash, but dropdown autocompletion doesn't work here for me).
Other problems I found so far with the KDE dialog (this is meant and hopefully understood as some constructive criticism :)) are:
- Toolbar is a bit too complicated. At least "reload" doesn't need to be there for sure. ;) Especially as it autoupdates the view anyway if something changes... I believe that "back" and "forward" buttons are equally useless. Sometimes they might be handy but in most of the cases you only need the UP button so making this one a bit larger instead should be more efficient.
- The special folder input field at the top isn't convenient, why isn't there only one locationbar? There are three input fields in the dialog when zero would be sufficient.
- The encoding selection is completely ambiguous. What should a beginner do with it? Browsers can show descriptive names for it so I bet that it would be possible there, too.
- Drag and drop to shortcut list doesn't work. I guess that's a planned feature.
- The file view scrolls vertical. Ugh. At least the default view (small icons). I see the reasoning behind this, but... hm...
- I just tried the thumbnail preview (nice to have) but it overlapps files. Maybe this is a work in progress of the Beta. Also the view isn't saved, so I wonder if it would be usefull if you use it a lot with a graphics application as it's not really convenient to change the view.
Not that bad, but not perfect. ;)
"What more do you need?"
Don't get me started... ;) Yes the current Gtk 1.2 file dialog with "Home" and "Desktop" buttons patch works quite well, but there are so many things wrong with it:
- It looks ugly. ;) Not even small icons besides the files to separate them from each other and emblems are completely missing...
- The "Files" view is very small. Yes you can resize the window but it doesn't safe the size.
- No bookmarks or custom shortcuts.
- Tab completion isn't user visible (Nautilus and the KDE file dialog... no wait, it doesn't (I really thought it did) but Nautilus and Konqueror do and make it visible to the user by showing what would be completed when hitting tab (Konqueror by providing a list and Nautilus by showing the rest of the filename selected).
- No thumbnails view like in Nautilus. Would be extremely convenient when selecting images (previews are a poor alternative).
- No simple file save dialog (like in Mac OS X). Using the same layout for file open and file save seems overcomplicated to me, of course Windows and KDE suffer from the same problem.
- Save dialog does not support "drag and drop saving". Granted, neither does anyone else but RISC and ROX...
- No possibility to show hidden files (you have to type "." and hit tab to see them).
- "../" isn't exactly what a new computer user should use to go up a directory and "./" is... well... nothing.
So I really can't wait for the new dialog that will hopefully use a Nautilus view. :)
I just hope that will remain as simple as it is right now as I believe that a file dialog should be as straight forward as possible, not a full blown file manager. I also hope that Nautilus will get a column view that can be used for it as I really like it.
Please stop trolling :)
I agry with you that completion is missing in KDE file dialog (One exist but less easy than in gtk file dialog) :(
What I need more is unification : I want the same file dialog (with Desktop, Home, patatipatata...) for all application belonging to Gnome.
> Please stop trolling :)
I assume that this is your idea of a joke? -_-
"Xmms doesn't use Gnome file dialog (Which is much powerfull than gtk one)"
As Stof already said, which GNOME dialog? ;) Gtk and GNOME file dialog are equal(ly bad) and I hope that the new one will be equal too. It doesn't make much sense to have two different file dialogs.
"It is not possible to integrate a part of it in other application (no bonobo)"
True, that's the advantage of gstreamer... But then again, there are other music player libs so there is no real difference for the user (Nautilus can play music just fine).
"Xmms manage its windows itself and not the way Gnome apps do (stay-on-top, position, display,...)."
Ok, but that's a minor issue. Winamp for Windows does the same and nobody cares... But it really should rather follow the wmspecs than Winamp...
"Xmms support drag&drop but all Gnome application don't. Xmms don't use d&d lib of Gnome :("
What do you mean? I can drag songs to XMMS, what else do I need in XMMS?
"Gimp doesn't respect Gnome design/ergonomy norms (If this one exist ;)"
Gimp does follow the HIG (mostly)! Well at least the Gtk2 version does. :)
Of course it has a very unique design but every application is free to apply the design that is most efficient for the particular task. There is no right or wrong here and no common way that is best for every work.
"I am waiting for abiword to integrate .xcf file in the document by using bonobo."
This would be nice, but I guess that Gimp could be bonobonized without using the GNOME libraries (besides libbonobo of course). Just like OpenOffice.org. And this doesn't apply to XMMS. ;)
What I mean is, there is no real need for Gimp and XMMS to use the GNOME-libs as it wouldn't make any real difference for the user, so why should they do it?
> What I mean is, there is no real need for Gimp and XMMS to use the GNOME-libs as it wouldn't make any real difference for the user, so why should they do it?
How about things from gnome-libs such as stock icons, dialogs, and other infastructure things such as gconf?
But you're right, the reasons for using GNOME and KDE libraries versus GTK+ or Qt has gone down. In fact, a lot of people (who don't use GNOME or KDE) prefer pure gtk+ or qt apps.
Well, stock icons aren't specific to GNOME. Those are part of Gtk AFAIK. And gconf is not GNOME specific either, in fact it could be used just as good by KDE applications. *hinthint* ;)
>And gconf is not GNOME specific either, in fact it could be used just as good by KDE applications. *hinthint* ;)
Gconf is horrible. Let us hope that KDE never uses it. Hint hint :)
There you go again. What makes GConf more horrible than KdeConfig? They are both universal frontends which are able to use different backends. GConf doesn't have to use the default XML backend, you can use the LDAP backend or whatever backend you want. Same story for KdeConfig. What makes you think GConf is so horrible other than the stupid propaganda from anti-GNOME trolls?
> Integration is useful and Gnome need to work on it.
> I am waiting for abiword to integrate .xcf file in the document by using
> Koffice do something like this but apps need work to support more used mimes-> types :(
Well, Integration is important, but in this day and age, users focus on the application more than the document. This has been tried and tried again to be fixed by various software developers, but no approach has so far worked. Take for example OpenDoc/Document-Subscriber Linking by Apple and Microsoft OLE/DirectX Objects/Universal Data Access/DDE. Kparts/DCOP and Bonobo sound great from a developers perspective, but I don't think
The only exception I make to this is probably things like Windows Explorer and Konqueror being both file managers and web browsers (among other things). I think Bonobo's growth in usage will perhaps only come through increased protrayal of Nautilus as a web browser.
Of course, this will never happen because of galeon.
integration in KDE is alive and well. it works primarily because most users are completely unaware that it is happening. i often hear comments about how kde "just seems to work". the seams that hold the applications together are pretty well invisible thanks to UI merging, ktrader autodetection of parts, aggressive use of interfaces and libraries, etc, etc..
the user can concentrate on what they perceive to be the "application" while the desktop provides document-centric integration transparently.
call it ubiquitous integration, if you will =)
It looks like the Linux Journal Editors have taken their time to choose carefully the software that pleased them. On the KDE side, KDE was awarded. On the Gnome/Gtk side, Mozilla + Galeon, Gimp, and Evolution were awarded. This is what these people think as users. There is nothing more to say about it.
Now if all people that just have to say "Kmail is better than Evolution" and "I like Galeon more than Konqueror", could refrain to post, that would be good. Currently, the dot looks like a child court, all childs saying "my father has a better job than yours".
We are all aware of the state of KDE and Gnome and it does not bring much anything to state your personal preference here. If you want to bash/defend gnome or KDE without any sensible arguments, there is an area dedicated to this: Slashdot
If you post here, please try to raise the level of the conversation instead of making it fall down. Like having backed-up facts and technical arguments. And there is no use to do it for every news at dot.kde.org
Overall, I find Galeon an excellent browser. However, it bothers me that I have to have Mozilla installed. I may as well use Mozilla. Also, I've had a problem with Galeon for the longest time. It won't keep my toolbar where I want it, i.e. after the location bar. Different people have reported the same or similar problems, but no one seems to have fixed it. At least that was the case about a month or so ago. Konqueror had many problems with a lot of web sites, but with KDE 3.0, it seems to be really improved and the difficulties are really much less frequent.
Everyone has a reason for picking certain apps. All apps have their pros and cons. Stating that App XYZ sucks is not very contructive.
Anyway...I like KDE because of the unified look and feel and how everything is so well integrated. But I don't knock people who like Gnome either.
Keep up the good work KDE devlopers!
> Konqueror had many problems with a lot of web sites
Is it not possible to use the Gecko-engine (Mozilla) with Konqueror?
congrats to everyone involved in creating and supporting KDE! you've done a great job and continue to do so.... thanks for all of you efforts and for gifting us with a terrific environment and set of apps...
speaking of which... as for seeing more KDE *apps* get the nod in the future, this is obviously where our challenge lies. popular opinion is that KDE apps aren't up to snuff. unfortunately, popular opinion usually lingers long after the facts have changed. let's just keep making better apps and more of them. our users will thank us every step along the way and eventually, with enough dilligence and effort, public opinion will turn around as well...
i can hear the tide rolling in ...
To all guys scewing against echother that GNOME or KDE is better, think about this: both systems have their strong and weak points. For example:
KDE: good intergration, but lacks quality at single applications.
GNOME: lacks intergration, but has good quality at single applications.
So insted of fighting, why not combine the powers of both sides. For example:
GNOME-aplications with the look and feel of KDE, nicely intergrated in the KDE-desktop. Ofcouse the same story for KDE-apps in gnome.
Now this days I still a lot of diffence in the interfaces of all sort of Linux-programs. Apple and Windows are much further in creating one similair look and feel and this makes those systems more userfiendly, esspecially for non-technical users.
If KDE and GNOME could develop (together) a sytem that when you use one of these desktops, all KDE- and GNOME- (and perhaps others) apps have the same look and feel (even the same icons, open / save dialogs, etc. etc.), them I'sure that Linux becomes much more userfrienly and nicer to use.
Because in the end, both efforts of KDE and GNOME are the creation of the best userinterface and applications for (mostly) Linux......and Linux exist because collaboration, not figting, flametrowing, trolling, screwing or whatever.
By the way, this project already seems to try to the things I just said above:
of course people can use GNOME and KDE apps on the same system. as well as GTK, Qt, Xlib, Athena, Fox, etc, etc, etc... apps..
GNOME and KDE will probably always remain somewhat unique, however.
as for freedesktop.org, it is a cooperation between the two projects, not a seperate project. so you can look to it for further cooperation between the two, but not some meta-project.
> KDE: good intergration, but lacks quality at single applications.
I think the applications have gotten better since 3.0.
> GNOME: lacks intergration, but has good quality at single applications.
I think integration has gotten better since 2.0.
Basically, I don't think old standards (that may have been true less than a year ago) apply to rapidly changing desktops such as KDE and GNOME.
seems like dot.kde.org
receive many "slashdot quality" post
xxx is better than yyy !
No, yyy is total crap !
Yeah, I get it. Please stop complaining, it only makes the situation worse. This is a banned user who keeps jumping through hoops to get back on this site. Let us work it out.
now you can banned me for this poor post :)
yes, you can to it!
anyway, thanks for the contribution.
Heh, we don't ban non-abusers for no reason. :-)
That message wasn't directed at only you either.
You sure? An admin (from another website) once said that the whole point of having power is to abuse it. :)
Yes you do. You ban them for having opinions that you don't like - and what's more, your own posts are sub-slashdot flamebait. In fact, you are the worst webmaster I've ever seen.
If you don't know how to stop the flames KDE vs. Gnome here
is my ideea. Why Evolution and KMail and Mozilla and OpenOffice
use different mailboxes?
At least KDE & Gnome (if not together with Mozila and OO) should
go hand in hand in creating a shared library for:
- Managing mailboxes, mail accounts/settings etc.
- Address-books, Organizer (meetings, calendar, notes etc...)
- Better cut/paste cooperation (including images)
- User settings (Desktop Icons, Menu entries, Documents dirs)
- Browser bookmarks, history and why not cookie.
Both KDE and Gnome got the bad Windows Ideea to be "application centric".
Heck, is not the applications the users care about, but the data.
They care about their e-mails, their accounts, their documents,
and settings etc... The one who want to try evolution must be able just to
start-it and have all the e-mails and settings in place.
If after a couple of weeks, he decide to go back on Kmail, everything
reveived with Evolution should be there.
Why duplicate effort in implementing 2 sound systems?
You have one, OK. Ask the other guys to provide bindings for
And so on. Duplicating efforts and trolling at each other it is
a good activity if you want users to stay in the Bill's courtyard.
Just my only 2 cents....
That is one of my small gripes at the moment. These are open source apps, yet I can't import and export Mail, address books, and other documents easily. I'd like to be able to easily and quickly view and edit KWord docs in Abiword, OO.org or Emacs, or Abiword or OO.org docs in KWord. If we're going to have millions of incompatable standards it's not good. I'm not suggesting having just one document format for all these programs, because they are all different. But they should be able to interchange documents.
One thing that I do to address interoperability with mail is to run an IMAP daemon on my machine locally. Then I just set kmail or whatever to use IMAP on localhost. Sure, kmail wants to create its own mail folders, but I can live with that; the mail is still accessible from Pine, kmail and anything else that supports IMAP. Even file locking works, so I don't have to worry about corruption or otherwise if two programs decide to access data simultaneously.
If you're not into getting an IMAP server going, a lot of times, you can just make links between pine's mbox, kmail's inbox, netscape's whatever, since they all use the same flat-file format for storing mail (just different file names). Be sure to back up though!
I believe that the Sun people are working on getting some standards for document types: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26900.html
And work is going into this too thanks to the german govt.: http://www.1dok.org/de/
Designing good document formats is a big deal, and I'm glad that nobody's just accepted a half-ass standard yet and instead taken time to see what is needed and what can work.
> - Better cut/paste cooperation (including images)
Why do people keep asking this? *Clipboard has been fixed on KDE 3.0*!!
> Why duplicate effort in implementing 2 sound systems?
GNOME is planning on moving away from esd and switching to arts. I don't know what the progress is, though...
"Why do people keep asking this? *Clipboard has been fixed on KDE 3.0*!!"
I think he was asking about other data than simple text. Clipboard doesn't exactly work with images and other data.
"GNOME is planning on moving away from esd and switching to arts. I don't know what the progress is, though..."
Gstreamer will support arts. The question remains, which soundserver will be default. I hope that arts becomes the de facto standard as we need one (it's especially important for gaming, I want to play Quake while listening to music and talking to people via voicecom! Well, at least two of this).
I whish though that KDE would adopt Gstreamer in turn =) but it doesn't look like it (I would be happy to be proven wrong though).
While KDE will use GNOME code, GNOME will never use KDE code. The chance of GNOME using arts is zero because arts is too much of a 'KDE project'. There is a possibility of Gstreamer in KDE, but the only way KDE code will end up in GNOME is if some developer a) Incorporates KDE code by accident or b) Removes all trace of KDE developer copyrights in the code. Cooperation between KDE and GNOME has always been one way, this will never change.
Nah. I can think of at least the early version of khtml became the early version of gtkhtml (or somesuch gnome lib). Abiword and the KOffice group get along. If I've seen those two, I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.
If I recall correctly, gtkhtml is a port of khtmlw (kde 1.x), and gtkhtml2 is a port of khtml (pre2.0-3.x)
> Cooperation between KDE and GNOME has always been one way, this will never change.
You obviously neglected xdnd, _NETWM, desktop entries, and of course, clipboard behavior changes.
Of course, these came from freedesktop.org, a site started and maintained by Havoc Pennington, who has always been one of the most important GNOME/gtk+/and *shrudder* RedHat developers. Through freedesktop, there has been much cooperation and standards sharing between KDE and GNOME. This is actually more practical than code sharing in most of the time.
RedHat to the rescue.
They are building a new enviroment that mixes KDE with GNOME.
People in both projects are pissed off at them but I'm so happy they are trying to solve the problem instead of trolling :-)
Way to go redhat!!!
This isn't the right way to solve the problem and Redhat knows it.